Jeff Townsend 0:08
All right. All right. All right. Welcome to another episode. Podcasting Sucks. It's a branch of Good Morning Podcasters by the lovely, sensual, beautiful. Yeah. I'm literally looking at him right now. He looks beautiful. Fuzz Martin, of course. I'm Jeff Townson. And today we're going to be talking about why podcasting sucks. Fuzz. How are you doing, man?
Fuzz Martin 0:31
I'm doing well, Jeff. Thank you and we both look stellar in our our Christmas attire.
Jeff Townsend 0:37
Yeah, you could probably hear me off in the distance trying to squeeze this. Like, like the sweater on that I wore in junior high maybe or you look good. I'm just I'm saying junior high right. But Lord knows just I've got fat recently. It's not like it's not junior high, you know? So yeah, Junior
Fuzz Martin 0:53
Junior lows. I am wearing a Christmas sweater but it is a CrossFit Christmas sweater. So it's got elves flipping attire. I got one doing deadlifts I saw. I got one doing pull ups. I got one doing box jumps. I got one doing rows with a dumbbell.
Jeff Townsend 1:10
Yeah. So and of course it's very it's also very, it's tighter. You're not just wearing some baggy Christmas sweater you're showing off your your CrossFit. Yeah, exactly that for sure. We're trying video today. Are you going to use this video? Yeah, we'll
Fuzz Martin 1:25
put this up on YouTube, we might as well we got a channel might as well use it, you know enough. But that does come up and one of the topics here today, because, you know, we want to talk about priorities. And there's a lot of prioritization that comes in when you're doing podcasting. And it's not just in what you should be doing on your show, but just all around, right. So your your life, your professional priorities, your and then your show priorities and your financial priorities. All those kind of come into play here in you know, it's one of those things that makes podcasting suck. But we love it right. And we're happy to be here. So, and I'm happy to be here with you, Jeff, as we come into the holidays.
Jeff Townsend 2:15
I know time just flying man. It's crazy. This is already this is the fourth recording of this or
Fuzz Martin 2:20
this is the fourth episode. Yeah. And you know we acquired podcasting sucks from Tanner Campbell back around Halloween. I think it was either on Halloween or around Halloween. Yeah, and we're not even a Christmas yet. So here we go.
Jeff Townsend 2:38
Alright, man. So like you said, Fuzz is taking charge this week. He's got a whole agenda. He spent at least 70 hours. Excuse me as I bust my knuckles on the table. 70 hours getting ready for this discussion tonight.
Fuzz Martin 2:50
Right now I had to prioritize editing the knuckle bust out of the audio?
Jeff Townsend 2:54
Don't do that. Yeah. There's like a, there's a video rule because I will never Yeah. Pain a video editor is a whole other frickin level if you have to. If not, it's time consuming. So my rule is go with the flow on the video. Unless it's disastrous. I don't like do all these angles. I know you're an Adobe, I know you're like the master at video. But it's still a lot of work. Yeah, it is.
Fuzz Martin 3:19
A lot of it is a lot of work. And, you know, that comes into this whole conversation here today is like what what is worth it in terms of your time? Like, what are you doing? You know, do you have to be doing all the things that you're doing? And this conversation actually came up? Because in my personal life, so I run a business? And that you know, first and foremost, as we all are, right? So I'm a dad? Yep, got a family got to worry about that first, then professionally, you know, worried about my job or about my business, my employees, all those things. And I worked with nonprofits and I, you know, I'm known as Mayor McFuzz here in our small town, and he the man, You the man and these things, while the all that all adds up time, right? And we have time is finite. And if you want to be spending time with your kids and family. You need to not spend all of your time doing other things like podcasting or editing out. Knuckle busts in a video podcasts or even maybe doing a video podcast might be more time than it's worth. Who knows. But I really think it's, it's time to like look at those things. And to really like hone in on what, what makes sense. Doing what is right for your schedule, not doing what you think is expected of you from society. Yeah. And, and all that.
Jeff Townsend 5:04
So you can't do everything right. I mean, not many people are capable of doing everything. I mean, just an average everyday indie podcaster, we'll call it for sure. Yeah, it's a struggle. It is it is.
Fuzz Martin 5:17
You know, like, when you look at life priorities, you know that and it's not just the human family too, it's like, you know, I'm wearing this CrossFit, Christmas sweater like, it's, and I don't do CrossFit anymore. But as you can see, by the way, the sweater fits. But the, the, you know, but I do go to the gym every morning, and getting to the gym is, you know, a priority, because health, you know, like, my personal health, and all this other stuff goes away, if my personal health isn't there, right. So yeah, making time for me in time for me to, you know, work off the cheeses that I'm eating, during the holiday season here, you know, those kinds of things are important for the rest of all of this, but it's again, it's time, it's, you know, 15 minutes to drive there and an hour to work out and 15 minutes drive home, it's, you know, hour and a half or so, you know, mental health and your time that you delete, if you don't have any downtime, and you're always doing stuff for other people, or even for things that like, you know, podcasting can be work that can really weigh on your mental health. So I think it's important that, you know, when you look at these life priorities, family health, your financial stability, you know, are you spending more on podcasting than you're making? And is that harming you financially? Are you able, you know, if you're able to cover this hobbies we talked about in a previous episode, you know, you're, you know, you're not, you're not out golfing, or or, you know, drinking a 12 hour of high, you know, high dollar IPAs or something? You're, you know, like, Is this is this your hobby? Can you afford it? And, and is it making sense for you? So, you know, life priorities? I don't know, are there? Are there other kinds of life priorities that you can think of that get in the way of, of what you're you're doing or what you want to do with your show or your podcast? Oh, well, I mean, I think you pretty much
Jeff Townsend 7:29
so covered it. And a lot of it is, like you said, it's just it comes down to time, right? What you want to do with your time, because there's a lot of work with, even with this podcast, but other ones like, like you do a local one, do a local one. There's a lot of work that goes in before that you probably don't think about or realize unless you are a podcaster. Right? And it's it's really prioritizing, and being realistic, what you can and can't do with your time because, and I, I need to work on that myself. Because you know, I try I'm trying to do a million things right now. But it's gonna come down to what you want to do with your time. Like for me, I don't I maybe get three hours of sleep a night. I have other podcast jobs. I guess an industry job. Sounds weird saying that. But you know what I mean, for me, it's what am I going to do? And I sacrifice a lot of time, and I sacrifice a lot of sleep. So I think it's life in general, it's going to be different for everybody. But it could be any, it could be anything, right? I mean, a co host like what, like I you get you get impacted by mine. Like we had to stop recording once so he couldn't record I mean, because something I had going on. So it's also when you're doing orgasms, somebody else, which some people are completely against, but I prefer it, man, I love it. And that's another factor that you that you have almost no control over. So that also comes around to something that's important with life and podcasting, you really have to try not to worry about the things that you can't control. And just do what you can with what you have easier said than done, though. Yeah, and I think
Fuzz Martin 9:09
even back to that, it comes down to like a write out all the things you're doing and find where the efficiencies could come like what is necessary. One thing and you and I have talked about this off the air, but when we went and you know what, good morning podcasters and podcasting sucks. And, um, you know, that's a name drop Tanner, but his whole thing was doing a podcast every day, right? Yeah, like, I run a business. I mean, he was running a business, but I like I've 80 employees. He has, you know, he had himself his business was what he was doing, is what he's doing. And you know, I have kids, you don't like the I was then though, when I took it over trying to do what he was doing before he left this. And that's you brought it up, and I kind of I feel like you gave me permission to, to be okay with. I don't have to be him. And I can do my own way. And I don't need a podcast every single day of the week. So I'll cut it back to what's reasonable and what feels good, because I love doing it. It's just a matter of working it into schedule, and making sure that the thing that I love doing isn't getting in the way, the things that I also have to do in order, you know, again, back to life and family and, and taking care of my other responsibilities. So, yeah, but yeah, like, you know, yeah, we talk show priorities. It's your right, coordinating with your co host, and your guests. If you're doing interviews, like you do interviews on, again, you're Indiana show, right? Yep. And finding time that works for them and works for you. And it depends on how long your show is, and, and all that can really impact.Jeff Townsend:
You got to find them to write in my case. Yeah, in my case, I gotta go out and find him. That that's harder than you would think. Like, I have a podcast about podcasting. But any podcaster it is not hard to find people to be on that podcast, I'm going to be honest with you, I've got a waitlist, I actually go out and seek people in the industry as well, though. But with this Indiana stories, I'm finding these stories that maybe aren't always as well known, right, in a historical sense in Indiana that are interesting. So I really have to work hard to find some of these. I don't know what I'm going to do for Monday's episode, I have two things that I'm looking for crazy, rare events. And I can't get one person to come on and talk about it. No one's come comfortable with it, or they say they don't know enough. That takes a lot of time to try to research and find these people it does.Fuzz Martin:
100% And so the other thing is that when you're doing a local podcast, like this actually, would be yesterday's episode of Good morning. podcasters is about hyperlocal podcasting. And that part of that getting people the people that you're going to interview a lot of times they haven't been on a podcast before. So it also comes down to microphone at etiquette, you know, are they in a room, that's going to sound good, because if they're not, you're going to spend extra time editing. Or you may end up scrapping the whole thing if it sounds real bad.Jeff Townsend:
And it's hard to explain that to a senior citizen first.Fuzz Martin:
Exactly in you know, like, Hey, could you at least wear you know, a pair of air pods or earbuds with a microphone on it a wired microphone or something. They don't, they don't get that thankfully, the I think the pandemic helped a little bit with some people. But after a while they they got used to doing that. But it is a you know, if you don't have a studio, that you're bringing people into it, even if you do like my, my show, I have a studio, I can have two guests in at once. And inevitably, like I gotta tell somebody to, you know, swallow the microphone, and get closer. They're pretty good at it. But if they haven't been on a podcast before, it's, you know, hearing themselves and in the headphones for the first time and all that stuff is foreign to them. And the that becomes an editing issue on the back end.Jeff Townsend:
creates a lot more work. So you try to make sure when we're prioritizing. Another thing is really prioritizing what you want to focus on when you're communicating with them. Even in that sense, because that's going to have an impact later. Prioritizing on making sure you're asking and saying the right things, because if you have to edit things out later, it's more work right, trying to keep them on track saying what you want them to say. And I'm not a scripted kind of guy, but I still realize that go down a rabbit hole. That's that's going to be more work for me. Yep.Fuzz Martin:
My show and I, my hyperlocal show is about positive people, places and things in Washington County, Wisconsin, so I'm not out to get any like groundbreaking, like gotcha moments, or any, you know, real deep stuff. I really I'm trying to get the stories out for these places. So what I typically do for the for my show is I'll, I'll write out what I call starter questions. And I know there's some people who are absolutely against this and I don't care is I'll say, here's what I'm planning on asking you like, this is kind of the flow of the show. So we've got a beginning, middle and an end. It always times They'll do 15 minutes ish. And the they come in, they're comfortable because they know what I'm going to ask them, there are a lot fewer us in arms because I have prep, they know what they're going to be talking about. I've prepped them on it. But it does take time to put that together and do the research. But I'll tell you this, doing the research, and this was even true, my radio days, if you spent an hour doing show prep in the morning, Your show was so much better than if you tried to wing it. And that same goes for when you're interviewing guests. So I guess put in the work. But if you put in the work, it should save you on the back end of the work. But it's still time. So.Jeff Townsend:
But what I've come to realize also is when you're talking to people, let's say they're politicians, right? Let's say they're significant members of the community. They almost put you through a vetting process, it's more work to they will require those questions, they will require things like that, they will require you to share episodes that they should listen to their that's another way where it's work, right? Because I've sent things and they want to know more. So you got to do more. And you'll and you almost and I think the difficult thing for me becomes how do you plan for the unknown? How do you have, let's just say, like, a little bit of buffer time in there, for example. That's where I really struggle with because like, you know, like I said earlier, I'm creating, I'm doing a lot of different things, you know, and so I really struggle with if I have to do more or something shifted, then I start to really struggle with trying to keep up and not get buried.Fuzz Martin:
Yeah. Yeah, that's really, it's really easy for that to happen. And you were talking about, you know, worrying about getting your show up for Monday. And that's same I moved mine to Tuesday's because I found that trying to do that over the weekends was it was killing my weekends. And so I'd rather kill a couple hours on a Monday night than that have to take time on on Sunday when I just want to have some downtime. away. So I moved my my showed release date from Mondays to Tuesdays for that reason, but it, you know, it goes back goes back to that mental health. And, you know, people always say, like, do what you love, and you'll never work a day in your life. But when you start making a job out of your passion and hobby it becomes sometimes it becomes a job. And that's not something you love anymore. I used to do photography, back in the mid 2000s to you know, Polaroid cameras, yes Polaroids. I was doing. Getty and I worked for getting a nice doc. But it was such a grind, setting up photoshoots bringing my light Holland my lights and my backgrounds and, you know, lining up models and getting releases and editing photos down to make them you know, high enough quality to get accepted onto Getty. Yeah, it took a lot. It paid off. Like I was making good money from it. Once my library was big enough, but sustainably, not there for a long term with having a career and other stuff. If if I wasn't gonna go into that full time. I'm going back into the podcast world, though. You know, it's it's a lot more to then recording and editing and posting. Like, there's the whole promotion of things. We talked about the different social media channels and what channels should you be on? Where should be you'd be spending your focus, and I saw somewhere. Yeah. And I saw something from Mark Asquith. He's doing his advent calendar, a piece. And he really talks about it. Yeah, it really is. And he talks about owning one channel at a time and not spreading your focus all over the place. And I think that's very, it's very good and important advice. It kind of feels hard to say, well, I might have some audience on Facebook, and I might have some audience on Twitter and Tiktok, and YouTube shorts and Instagram reels. And yeah, I don't even know if I'd said Twitter yet. And there's the new ones that are coming out. But you can't really do all of those. Well, if you're not doing it full time, right. I mean, it's hard.Jeff Townsend:
And I think the thing that I see working with a lot of podcasters is you are now doing you're welcome SunWorld to be in. It's also making sure you're prioritizing things in the sense that you're doing the right things. You're doing things Right, where you're not wasting your time. I give this example all the time. But it's a really good example because this is a podcast about podcasting. Tweeting out your stuff to a bunch of other podcasters and sending gifts and the podcast attaboys. That's a waste of time. Alright, so to me it's waste, I look at waste in the sense of what it is, and you don't have value from it. Simply right, that's what waste is. So it's not a value added. And that's an example of that. So when you're talking about prioritizing, it's important that you're doing the right things as well, or you're going to either one wastes a lot of time or two, you're going to have to do a hell of a lot more work. On top of the stuff that you're doing, that's wasting your time.Fuzz Martin:
Yeah, and so your point, too, is that you got to be talking to the right audience, and that, just speaking to the echo chamber, there's gonna be a lot of people that are gonna like your posts when you talk, you know, a lot of podcasters will say, Yeah, attaboy, you posted a podcast, here's a like for you, but it doesn't equate to listens. What unfortunately, what equates to listens, is when you have a community, and you've connected with that community. And, you know, going back to this point, it's where do you want that community to be? Do you want it? Where where is that community, most active, I guess, and then going to that place and forming your, your, you know, establishing yourself in that area, because you could waste a bunch of time on Twitter and talking to podcasters. When your real audience for your, you know, True Crime podcast is on Facebook. And you know, they might want to join a group and talk about this, they might already be in a number of groups where you could be interacting with them and sharing your stuff that way. And you might get some you might get podcaster likes on Twitter, but you if you want, you know, true if you're a true crime podcast, or you want true crime likes not podcast or likes.Jeff Townsend:
Yeah, it cracks me up, because some of the people you can have like 80 retweets, right? And you can go on to like their pod bean and see their downloads. Yeah, maybe maybe half of that after a week. So Right? Yeah, you just got to do the right things. And there's nothing wrong with supporting each other at all. It comes down to it again, like when people are like, I don't have enough time. I don't have enough time. We're all guilty of it. What are you going to do with your time? That's going to make it right? And then why are you doing it? IfFuzz Martin:
you don't have time to do it, then, I mean, you have to just expect that it's, you're just out there hoping that somebody finds it and that the word of mouth takes you where you need to go. And that's, you don't really control that at thatJeff Townsend:
point. That's a very difficult thing. When you hear people I'll try not to go on a rabbit hole here. Word of mouth is the most powerful thing. Yeah, but it needs it needs backing, right? It needs. You need to get out in front of people so they can do that word of mouth. So that always cracks me up. It's just not your go. And Jess off word of mouth is going to be very rare to go viral or something, for example. Yeah, but you got to be strategic what you're doing for sure.Fuzz Martin:
Yeah, word of mouth works if you're a celebrity already, or Yeah, you know,Jeff Townsend:
you've and they still spend a boatload of money on advertising. Yeah. And no.Fuzz Martin:
Again, you gotta find your audience, go to your audience. But then, you know, going back to this point, it's spending your time in one area where you know, that your audience is. So if you're, if you have a podcast, and your niche is, you know, focused in one certain area, because you live in that world, you likely know where those people are hanging out, right? If you're doing a podcast about you know, I have a client that does a podcast about battery backup generators, and they've got a really good listenership, because they go after only people who are living in the battery backup world. Yeah, and they've got some of them they can listen to, that they really relate to and they know where to find them. And they, you know, go to trade shows and participate in forums and those kinds of things. But they're not out on Twitter posting the this podcast because nobody on Twitter would care about that at all. So you can spend your time so sorry, let's go ahead and go ahead. Just because I was gonna say spend your time interacting where your listeners are. AndJeff Townsend:
I've been in a situation where I had a buddy that did a podcast about the garbage disposal, disposal industry, it and when you're doing that, we use the word community all the time, it's a buzzword. They don't really want you to engage with them. They just want informative content. So sometimes it might be realizing that right like not all audiences are worried about you going out Maybe if it's a business standpoint, they're not worried about literally you going out developing community engaging with them. So the focus there would be, you just need to have really good content. Because they're not, you're not going to get that engagement, you know, with them if you put the work in, because that's not why they're there. So it's also understanding, like, why you're doing it, and why you're creating the content you are and what it's for, and howFuzz Martin:
it fits into people'sJeff Townsend:
lives. Like what are you what are you what are they getting out of it, and that will also dictate the things that you should be doing and prioritizing,Fuzz Martin:
right. And then that goes down to to talking about advertising and advertising to who you should be you know, who you want to reach. If you're doing any advertising, make sure you're focusing that on your specific audience. Don't stay too broad. You know, if you have a sports podcast, make sure you're advertising the people actually care about the kind of sports that you're talking about in the geographical regions that you're talking about. Don't be wasting your money on getting a broad range, because the Pay Per Click might be or per view might be, yeah, well, we're you got to really focus and prioritize that audience. Otherwise, again, you're wasting you're wasting your money and wasting your time. If you're wasting your money, you're also wasting your time because you put time into doing that. So. And another thing? So here's something groundbreaking news, Jeff, when I first started doing good morning, podcasters, I also created the Good morning inbox newsletter. Well, that was going to be an exclusive piece of content that I put out every single Monday to subscribers to the newsletter that wouldn't be on the podcast, which sounds great. Yeah, in theory, but doing that work. At right now, it's not. Yeah, I have 1518 subscribers on that right now after, you know, a month and a half. And I could put the focus in and I could I'm sure I could grow that if I focused on it. And I did that. But that means on Sundays, I'm writing an article and scheduling an email to go out and in those kinds of things, and I totally get the need for newsletters and the, you know, the viability of newsletters, but for what I'm doing doesn't make sense right now. And I don't think it is it does. So probably going to put that on hiatus for a while.Jeff Townsend:
So yeah, and like, before I even started in the stories, I had, like 160 subscribers to the newsletter because I pushed it. And I still have to prioritize that I'm a few episodes behind. I'm like what are like to be as far as sharing the content that I covered that week. But I'm being realistic, right. And I'm not, that's not my priority, necessarily. I mean, I need to figure out how to get a better workflow to get it done. But in the meantime, I got to focus on making good content, making the content. So it's interesting, you bring that up. And I do want to, I know we're getting close to closing this out. But another thing that is significant here that we didn't touch up on, and I think you'll agree with this, but we often go into this mindset where we got to do the Patreon route, we got to do this extra content route. And I find for me in knowing the statistics of it, that that isn't necessarily a good use of everybody's time, you really had to think about it, because most of the content on Patreon, a higher percentage than not, is actually not getting consumed. So patrons are paying you you're giving them extra content. More often than not, that is not they're not even listening to it. They're not even watching it, for whatever reason. So for me, it's always been even like I have the Twitter. What does it follow? Is it called subscribers now? Yeah, I don't offer anything for that. And I put it in there. And I had somebody that their day that subscribes me and they're like, you can't just not offer anything. I'm like, Can I offer you something that I can't do? Like I don't have time to do. So with Patreon and stuff like that, I've always had better luck going off the fact that it's just an appreciation thing, not that I can create more content, because that would jeopardize the content that I'm already getting to you. It would take time away from it, it would take more time, which would then obviously make the content not as well. So yeah, man, I think that's a big thing too. People get caught up on that. How am I gonna make money? How are we gonna make money? Well, make an extra content. It's not always the way to go about it. Right?Fuzz Martin:
I mean, I'll just be honest. Yeah. 100% And if you can't sustain it, then we're good as an any and you know, back to your point. Buy me a coffee or you know, you Even some of the other donation believe like even your subscribership just saying, by subscribing your help and make a donate donation to my show, so I can keep my show and content going. There's nothing extra for it, but it only costs 399 a month. So is that, is that worth it to you? And your your true Subscribers Will Get at any note for some Patreon works great. They offer great stuff. Yeah, we'll get something out of it. But that percentage I'm sure is low. And for those of you who are, you know, grinding at it, and people aren't consuming that is are you? Are you making any money off that? And are you? Are you? Like, are you even getting minimum wage out of it? That's, uh, yeah. So I know, we got to wrap up. ButJeff Townsend:
I know that's a great point, man. And I think on the reverse side of that, it's also about knowing what they what your audience wants, who they are. And I've also seen where they don't really want an extra episode, maybe, and I've had this happen, where it's a really big engaged, maybe not even big, the really engaged Facebook group or something, they just want you to spend time with them, some podcasts do some audio listeners do. And that makes a huge difference rather than creating content. And it's sure it takes up it takes up time. But it's easier, let's be honest, and just talking to easier. So yeah, I mean, that's, that's something to keep in mind too, like doing the right thing, if you're gonna go down thatFuzz Martin:
route. I'm a big believer too, and just being truthful with your audience and saying, like, I can't do all these extra things. Because I know if you want the show to still be good, like, I can't focus on that, but I need to I need to be financially sustained in order for me to keep doing this. So if you want to keep doing the show, please help me out. And then every so often, providing his spiff here and there, of course, interacting with them, as you said, those kinds of things, great, but no separate episode every week. You know, running a Slack channel or discord? You know, like, that's tough. You're like your answer your I gotta be on all day. So and if you can do it, great. Otherwise, podcasting is gonna suck.Jeff Townsend:
Yeah, which will lead us to the end here. So people listening to this are probably podcasters but so my call to action really is, let us know you're listening to it. Tell other podcasters that you're listening to it, that you find this interesting, you're getting help out of this. And I'll put Good morning podcasters with that it's a brand. I mean, it's the same thing relatively. So I mean, yeah, let us know, share that with other podcasters. That's, that's really what's going to help expose, you're doing a hell of a job with good morning. podcasters. Think I love and I think it has a lot of value. But in order to do that, it's going to have to be like, any podcaster. Right? Like, we're going to need to let other people know that they're listening to you. If you have other podcasts or friends, let them know. And that's the call to action that would I think help us that most. Well, we want to get the right people listening, telling us what they want to hear what they want to learn more about. And we'll really go from there. And that's how we're going to grow and make better content.Fuzz Martin:
I think we're the exception with a podcast about podcasting with tweeting and posting on, you know, good pods. This is the exception to that rule. So don't do it for your show. It's not about podcasting.Jeff Townsend:
You got to get your foot Yeah, yeah, exactly. Good to mention that.Fuzz Martin:
But, you know, until next time, remember, podcasting sucks. It doesn't have to. Yep, join us Saturday mornings right here on the Good morning. podcasters feed for podcasting sucks and Jeff, even though it does suck from time to time, I love doing it with you. So thanks for coming on.Jeff Townsend:
The same here man. I absolutely love your sweater and I can't wait to show the world. How amazing it is. So it looks a little bit less with you too, buddy. Appreciate it. Excellent. TalkUnknown Speaker:
to you soon.